Pay Equity in American Theatre: An Interview with Playwright Sarah Bierstock for #ArtsEquity

Read Along with the Interview

I am talking to Sarah Bierstock, an actress, playwright and producer based in New York City. Welcome to our podcast on pay equity in theatre.

Thank you so much. I’m so happy to be here with you.

You have been in this business for a while. Would you say that more roles for women and alternative ethnicities are becoming available in the New York theatre industry?

Definitely. That has been in process for at least five years, but certainly post pandemic, there’s been a tremendous increase in opportunities for people of color. Any voices that we weren’t hearing before.

So that does include women, and unilaterally the casting has gotten significantly more inclusive.

That sounds like good news.

I think it is good news. Yes, long overdue.

You’ve had a career shift from being on stage to writing plays and producing short films. When and why did you start to write plays?

It happened because I became completely fixated by a real life story, which was all over the news, about an honor killing that had happened in Pakistan. I had one of those moments where I couldn’t shake what I was reading, a particular story where this woman had been standing on the steps of a courthouse with her husband in broad daylight, in the morning, and she was stoned to death by her family in front of many people entering the courthouse.

I had so many feelings and thoughts inside of me that I just started writing. And I think the reason it came out in the form of a play was simply because my whole life has been spent in the theatre. So it’s just a really natural creative outlet for me.

That play kind of took over my life for a while. I edited it and researched and developed it for many years. And once it had a life, I realized I had other things I wanted to say and explore in playwriting. And so that became more expansive over time.

When you were working on your play Honor Killing, did you find it easy to score opportunities to develop the play?

Easy is a very relative term. I think the answer is no. However, that particular piece people were really invested in, as in the importance of what we were talking about and what the play explored, which was misogyny and violence against women; it touches on gang rape in the United States. It touches on pointing a finger at “other” in terms of other cultures. It was very much on the pulse of what everybody wanted to talk about at that particular moment. And so I found that actors were very willing to donate their time to do table reads and I suspect could tell that I was trying to learn myself.

But in terms of support outside of actor friends volunteering to do readings, it’s very challenging to financially get any development or opportunity as a first time playwright, which I certainly was. I came into that with zero experience to show to date. And so, when you have people all over the world and country and New York City especially with a canon of work and MFAs, they’re going to go to those people over a first time playwright.

Did you have any experiences at all where being a woman playwright made a difference as opposed to being a male playwright presenting their first play?

I happen to be writing plays at a time when the country and the world have decided that it’s incredibly important that other voices are being elevated. I’m a white woman. And I have had people tell me definitively they were interested in elevating people of color’s voices right now, and therefore were not pursuing developing pieces by women who are not of color at the moment.

Now, that’s really complicated. And I think that that’s a pendulum swing that needs to happen. The theatre or the artistic director, or whoever’s producing the opportunity, is in many ways elevating the person’s voice. It’s not so much about the play as it is about choosing a playwright to elevate their voice. And that’s very different from casting.

So I think there’s an intentionality about which voices are being elevated and there should be, but there’s always going to be discrepancy when that happens because historically it’s been white men. So there’s going to be a shift when we’re trying to elevate other voices. And I’m somewhere kind of in between that because I am a woman, but I’m a white woman. There is a conversation that’s happening internally in theatres, as it should, about which voices are being elevated. And often, that won’t be me. And I have been told as such, and I think that’s challenging, but it’s also appropriate and necessary.

I hear what you’re saying. Do you feel that the royalty system is advantageous for women playwrights because the play makes what it makes and it’s not as bound up with offering women less pay as we’re experiencing in other areas of work?

Yeah, I think that’s true. It depends on the relationship to the theatre or how long the play is running. Usually, you’re given an advance and then you make a percentage of the box office. So once that play is running, or let’s say hopefully you have several plays running, you’re getting that consistent check based on ticket sales. So it does even out any questions about what you might make, that’s for sure.

Do you think there could be latent discrimination in terms of some theatres offering women playwrights a lower percentage? Could that be a thing?

I think that’s entirely possible. It’s negotiated between the playwright’s agent and the theatre. There are standard rates, but it’s possible that if the person’s famous, they might try to navigate what that rate is. Absolutely.

In New York City, more unionized theatre work is available than in most other U.S. cities. Would you say that as an actress, union membership has provided you with more equitable pay than you might have otherwise experienced?

Absolutely. Because theatre by nature is so time-consuming, and especially when you get down to things like tech week and endless days and the breaks that you require when it’s not unionized.  It is so easy and sometimes it could feel essential out of desperation to take advantage of people’s time and not function within what’s appropriate for an actor to be compensated.

When you become part of the union, you get paid for all of those things. So if you were to go over the timeframe that’s been allotted, or if you crept into lunchtime, or all of the things which happen when there’s no regulatory factors, are all compensated as a union member.

Do you feel that actors’ unions are a strong pay equity tool in the arts?

Yes, I do. Absolutely.

New York City is also one of the places in the US where childcare is least affordable. How do you keep your artistic career ticking while choosing to be a stay at home parent for your daughters?

I don’t have an answer because it’s so phenomenally difficult that I think every day is just a juggle. There are organizations that are in place and are soliciting funding so they can be helpful to women with children in this industry, and I should say parents in general. There’s an organization called PAL. And again, these are organizations that raise money to help if a woman or a man is in a show and they need support with childcare, they can help. But it is few and far between.

If you don’t have family here or you don’t have an immediate network of people that can help you with your children, it’s close to impossible.

Would you say that those difficulties drive theatre workers like you more towards the playwriting and production end?

Absolutely. If I decided tomorrow that I wanted to even be in the running for an audition, I would have to spend probably thousands of dollars just to be able to prepare the way I need to for the audition, never mind getting to the audition and getting my children where they need to be that particular day. And God forbid I have a callback or a second callback or that I get the show. It’s thousands and thousands of dollars.

So ultimately in the world of theatre, the stage privileges childless individuals?

Yes. I don’t choose to word it like that because that feels so difficult. But I think that that’s true.

What makes you most angry or frustrated about working in theatre?

That it can feel like the same actors work all the time, when there’s so many profoundly talented people. I have a business understanding of why that is, and it sort of springs back to where this conversation started: Producers need the show to run to make money. And if you have a known face, it is more likely that people will come see your shows. It’s hard to break into that.

So, in terms of pay equity, there is kind of a clustering of pay opportunities for the people who are already in.

Absolutely. Or you end up taking something that’s very little pay, next to nothing, so that you have exposure, so that you can then get the higher-paying job. But if you do have children, think about the money you’re spending to be able to do that next-to-nothing-income job. It’s a financial loss unilaterally, unless you are part of that 1 % that is working consistently.

What I’m hearing is that for women actresses in particular, this is a time in the world where gender bias might not be the biggest hurdle, but motherhood is?

If you’re making me choose, I would definitely say motherhood is by far more of a challenge and bias than being a woman, though they are both challenging. Also, by nature, there are so many more actresses than male actors. There’s also a numbers game of percentages.

At this point in theatre history, would you say there is roughly the same number of roles on offer for male and female actors?

There’s still significantly more male parts. I think that that’s shifting, particularly as we elevate more women’s voices, they are writing more women’s roles.

What would you love to see happen in U.S. theatre regarding equity and pay equity in your lifetime?

I don’t know how we would do it, but if the union took a small percentage out of our dues and put it towards support for people with children so they can audition because it covered childcare, that would be ginormous in terms of expanding who is even available to be up for a role.

As I said before, I rarely even look at what’s happening because I know what’s required for me to be competitive for it and if something like that existed, I would definitely have my eye and my feet more in the game than I currently do.

You have been drifting more into a behind-the-scenes writer/producer role, and you have branched into short film production. Tell us what inspired you to begin with film work.

I’ve always loved film. I’ve been in front of the camera a number of times over the years, which I really enjoy. I’m not someone who thinks about the lane very much. I just create things, and sometimes they come out of me in different ways.

Congratulations.

Oh, thank you. I’m just thrilled about how that whole process went and really excited by what I’ve seen in the playback. And it’s an incredible collaboration of almost exclusively women. I think behind the scenes, there was one man. And not not because we don’t want to work with men, but because we just all wanted to work with the people that we had worked with before who really were so talented, reliable and smart, and they just happened to be a whole big group of women. So wonderful. I think I’ve drifted off the question.

No, you have completely hit the bullseye because this is what we’ve been finding out in our pay equity survey and in our conversations. That there is a natural social element to hiring.

The more we see women in the production and hiring role, the more talented women who were previously overlooked and not in the room are going to be involved. So it’s a really important aspect of equity.

You’re definitely right that they tend to not have an avenue to make money. So that’s really challenging. For both of my short films, I raised money. I had a benefit for one. I raised money with crowdfunding for the first one. This time, I approached organizations whose missions were aligned with what we were exploring in the film. And I found that for the most part, people really wanted to be a part of it. They wanted to sponsor it.

So I don’t think in a way that I will end up making money on this film. But at the end of the day, I think I will have the film fully subsidized. And that means that I’m paying my own company back. I’m paying all of my crew members, all of the talent.

And then it, it’s almost like work begets work, and it’s important that people can see what you’re capable of making, so they can envision you doing other things that are perhaps more commercially viable, that they’ll be willing to pay you good money for.

So how can our listeners support your project of putting women and women’s issues into short films?

We have to continue to put our money on the projects that are investigating those ideas. My film is not out yet, so I can’t direct you to it. But if you put your money to support the theatre and or the film that is exploring ideas that are empowering women and girls, then more commercial producers will find value in it because it becomes financially lucrative for them.

What makes you hopeful in the world of theatre today?

It is very exciting that so many new voices are being heard and seen. And I think that that’s going to change the storytelling. It’s going to change who is sitting in the audience, because they’ll be attracted to seeing something that they can relate to. And I think when the percentage of theatregoers widens, then there’s a collective shift in the conversations people are having. So that’s thrilling.

You have a number of children’s and youth plays under your belt. Is playwriting for children’s theatre equitably paid?

I would say it’s the same as for any avenue of playwriting. Because again, if the theatre or producer is paying a playwright, they are either paying to have something commissioned or they are saying we’ve read through all of these plays and these are the stories we want to tell right now and then we’re going to establish a rate. So, I only know what I make.

But it’s not going to be a case where if you’re writing for adults versus children that one is more necessarily equitable than the other.

And have you found that writing children’s plays is relatively lucrative within your basket of activities?

Yes, and probably some might say more so because if you write something that is interesting to schools. If there’s a children’s play that the schools really relate to and think is giving an important mission or experience to their children, you may find that suddenly there’s schools across the country that want to do your play.

That being said, I will say that the playwright is going to make a lot less money in a school having a school play circulating than in a theatre, because the school cannot charge the prices that the theatres can charge, and your pay is directly related to the ticket price.

Sarah, what is our next opportunity to see any of your work?

Speaking of children’s theatre, I have a play called Pandora’s Suitcase, which is being produced by Syracuse Stage that will be running all within a mile radius of Syracuse, NY for about three months. And the short film I just wrapped yesterday, which is called All the World is a Stage, and is currently being edited. It will premiere on broadwayworld.com on International Women’s Day, March 8th.

We look forward to that massively. Obviously it’s a big day in the Athena calendar.

Your short film All the World’s A Stage shows a songstress spinning through many different roles to suit her audiences, until she takes her power back and performs her essential self. Tell us about that final moment.

Yes, she finally comes out of the spin and says, you know what? I’m enough as I am. And she’s in a very simple dress and the lights come up and she hears something, she’s kind of asking who’s there, and it’s her daughter.

It’s her seven-year-old daughter who’s looking at her. And she finishes the song with this sort of very simple, I am enough as I am line. And it’s very powerful. It makes me emotional to talk about it because it’s aligned with everything that we’ve been discussing, not trying to meet a myriad of expectations without support, but finding your own internal validation.

It’s amazing for the young girls of today to see their moms become not just the actress in the spotlight who is reacting to other people’s cues, but also the producer or the director.

It’s so important and it’s so hard. I had someone in my life say to me recently: Don’t take for granted that your girls understand what you do. You need to show them, take them to set, take them to the theatre, take them to a rehearsal, because they need to see you in all that you do, so they can learn.

They respect you, they learn that they can do those things, and they need to see you be someone other than just mom. They need to know all of you, so that it’s set up as a possibility for them to be more than what they are experiencing of you at home.

And how beautiful that we are allowed to model success in new roles for a generation for whom, hopefully, this will become normalized.

Wouldn’t that be nice?

Let’s hope for the best.

Thank you so much for sharing these insights in a conversation that’s not usually had. We’ll be watching your work, Sarah Bierstock.